http://analogrpgers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#a83f4774-c209-4125-9f86-af448de68057 I have to agree 100% ZaeM. WotC has become the "Games Workshop" of the Roleplaying world, a soulless company merely churning out 'product'. This sort of attitude began with AD&D 2e, it was 2nd Edition that pretty much Killed TSR off. It was supposed to be a new start for TSR after Gygax and Arneson had both severed their ties and Gygax had sold his share of the company. But producing endless streams of useless and nonsensical supplements to the rules was the veritable straw that broke the Donkeys back. Resulting in banckrupcy for TSR and left the Door open for Wizards to buy the rights. Then came the 3rd Edition. . . . . 3rd Edition (and even more so with 3.5) was (and I quote Gary Gygax here) “The new D&D is too rule intensive. It’s relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It’s done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good” – I personally think there was no real bitterness in that statement (he had left TSR behind years ago), and I have to agree with him totally. Those of you who like 4th (or 3rd or 3.5 for that matter) Edition, have to realize they might be playing a Fantasy RPG with some elements of D&D/AD&D – but they AREN’T Playing D&D/AD&D – its a derivite. You may think thats a VERY bold statement, so allow me to explain - D&D/AD&D was written/created by Dave Arneson & Gary Gygax. Anything else (even products that might hold the license) created/produced not under the direct control of those two very missed individuals is NOT D&D/AD&D. Its like reading a Discworld story not written by Terry Pratchett, it might be ABOUT Discworld – possibly even legally and professionally produced. But its NOT from the mind of Terry Pratchett, so it can never be truly a Discworld Story. Modern D&D is a Miniatures Game with Roleplaying elements built in. You can put as many rules and systems in place as you want, I’ve bought a LOT of 4e stuff, and was on the verge of starting up DM’ing the new Edition when something struck me – the constant churning over balance meant that (pretty much) all the character types were becoming the same. Sure the descriptive text is pretty, but ALL the mechanics of Feats/Spells and the like meant everything pretty much worked the same way – wheres the fun in that. I'll take substance over 'fluff' any day. Back in the ‘Old Days’ balance came from the Dungeon Master. If something was too powerful, he countered it with something in the Scenario or something ‘unexpected’ in the Game World. If a Character was rapidly becoming dominant within a group, generally it was because of his natural strength of personality – not because of the rules of a game, dice rolls, or character he chose to play (think “Colin” Lol, every group has a Colin – he was always the bully of the group). As Don Turnbul (he used to be head of TSR UK) once said to me at a Con (all those years ago again OMG I feel so old), “don’t rely on the rules too much – always try to make some of it up as you go along; both you and your players will have more fun that way”. The current RPG market is made up of sterile recycled ideas and overly complicated rulesets. Original D&D/AD&D had it right, unfortunately MOST people either can’t see it or are too stubborn to admit it. Keep Rollin – Drew Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:08:52 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#a83f4774-c209-4125-9f86-af448de68057 A. ScottWood 2009-09-21T13:08:52Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#12b3e4ac-9dc0-4ed5-8d5e-61ede4550f62 4th edition? I haven't played any edition beyond edition 2. I like the OLD school. Wed, 13 May 2009 17:51:01 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#12b3e4ac-9dc0-4ed5-8d5e-61ede4550f62 Silverknight 2009-05-13T17:51:01Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#7aab3201-854d-4912-8076-250006657654 I was done after Player's option in the early days of 3.0 Its been our group's M.O. to write our own systems and feature them for one another, and our system is considerably further along than 4.0... I'd say we're more like 14.85 at this point. but as a fan, and follower of the industry; this whole 4.0 thing is just awful. I looked through the books at the store the other day, and I saw zero semblence to Dungeons and Dragons. Why? why screw it up? money grubbing is the only answer. they've reinvented the wheel, and now the cart is wobbly. Tue, 01 Jul 2008 04:05:53 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#7aab3201-854d-4912-8076-250006657654 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2008-07-01T04:05:53Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#aa350ca5-7ce0-43a1-bcf7-d8329d94e102 My gaming group tried out 4th edition - we've nicknamed it Wizardhammer 40K. I wanted to give it a chance before I made up my mind about it. So far, I see no redeeming features. The ONLY thing I liked is the setup for races. The addition of the dragonborn and tiefling give players who like monstrous characters something to pick from that you can play at first level with no crazy ECL. Outside of that - nothing. The spellcasting system castrates wizards, and the clerics' uniform abilities regardless of diety take the fun out of playing one. Plus, healing surges for all classes take away one of the major support roles for the cleric. The fighter gets screwed because you can only use things like Cleave once in an encounter, and once you've declared it, it's used whether you land the hit or not. The ritual system that allows any class to cast if they take the rituals feat also sucks because the expense and time for each of the rituals makes them useless in game. AND last but not least (for this rant anyway), the action points system in 4th edition is quite odd. In Eberron it was easy to figure out how many action points you had, and when and how they could be used. For 4th, apparently, you only really ever have one. Sure, you can get an additional action point after 2 encounters, but by then you've most likely spent the one you had before, so - you get one. You might as well just take 6 hours off in game and call it good. Eesh. I think I'm sticking with 3.5. Never ever wanna play Wizardhammer again. Ever. Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:56:35 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#aa350ca5-7ce0-43a1-bcf7-d8329d94e102 roz 2008-06-30T13:56:35Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#9c72e9c6-45e3-41a2-8c05-39e3990321c4 Pathfinder will support the 3rd / 3.5 Edition works -- lets hope they do a good job with it? That being said -- 4th Edition main purpose is designed to get you online. This is is only superficially D&D in the effort to draw in the full D&D audience... Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:29:59 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#9c72e9c6-45e3-41a2-8c05-39e3990321c4 Frozenstars 2008-06-30T05:29:59Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#c328b1f3-5c17-42e3-96aa-500becae6528 I think Gary Gygax died after reading 4th edition.. I can imagine him eagerly opening the Artifact level Tomb only to find it was cursed with such a madening mockery of mechanics that even the great maven DM missed his save.. RIP Gary I have read the three core 4th ed books at the store(yah I read stuff at stores for long periods and not buy anything).... they definitly suck. It is basically a different game now. Of course if I wanted to play a different game if would pick one of the already existing myriad of worthy choices such as Rifts, Robotech or Vampire. D&D had always been a step above these.... until now. I own all three and a half editions of the game. What made 3rd edition acceptable and eventually the best edition was that it took that core system and principles of what D&D was and attempted (often successfully) to improve on them while at the same time continuing to add creative options, ideas and settings. To be sure there was some worthless or just plain bad crap in 3rd Edition but these pieces were easily removed or ignored. Additionally, when there were things that were better or cool from the previous two editions it was easy to add, integrate, swap or convert with 3rd edition. This is no longer the case with 4th edition. It also completly fails as a new game system... it has almost no interesting features leading to no reason to play it instead of another system... For example, with 3rd edition it kind of seemed to get ideas from good RPG video games like those from SSI which lead to innovations in how to visualize and work with combat situations. Nothing of the sort in 4th edition. We get things like healing surges available to every class adding absolutely nothing to the game... who thought of this bright idea? Probably the same one who thought of counterspelling in 3rd ed. With the exeption of a few good pictures, the art is becoming worse by more closely resembling cartoons and comic books. The disturbing trend of integrating wildly different styles of art continues with various cartoons, video game like pics, sketches, comic book characters and a few really excellent pictures. And I can't stop thinking about that recycled picture of the Night Hag from MM1 3.0 now in the 4th edition monster manual.... this sort of recycling is nothing new to D&D but after reprinting the same monsters over 4 editions of the game, the least they could do is give us a new picture! To put it another way, I remember several years ago when 3rd edition just came out and I was skeptically looking at it thinking " 2nd editiion is a little clunky but itss fine overall... do I really want to spend a wad of cash for more and more recycled info, stats and such?" Then I went to the store the fresh and interesting cover design and lay out caught my eye...as I opened up the 3rd ed monster manual I was further impressed by the interior art, organization and good conceptualization and ideas. Degree of recycled content was high to be sure but there was obvious new creativity and geniius mixed in.... I found most of the other 3rd edition books to also be of quality and my collection grew substantially over the following years. I got no such spark or inspiration from the 4th edition MM or its core book companions....the cover design was ok but not inspiring, the interior art was mostly very good but that is where the value ends....the content was sadly lacking and good ideas were missiong while bad ideas held center stage. In general the core books were boring and their mechanics purpusless. All together the situation leads me to believe that the design of 4th edition had only financial goals in mind with no thought of real RPG fans. Not exactly sure who they are marketing to however. It would be much better if they would have stuck to continued expansion of 3rd edition and maybe published a rule update or tweak manual here and there. I think they made 4th ed. so different so that there couldn't be any gradual or partial conversion options like there was between 2nd and 3rd editions. 4th ed is dead to me.... long live the classic versions of D&D and hopefully publishers like Green Ronin and Swords and Sorcery will continue making things for them... well, at least until the Large Hadron Collider starts running in August creating a micro black hole that swallows the Earth...... Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:39:44 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#c328b1f3-5c17-42e3-96aa-500becae6528 Dire Tomato 2008-06-28T22:39:44Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#5866dc77-3bd9-4414-9aeb-cc15a6e69e24 Wassabeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! No doubt we will have to do this One night at Pennsic. i am all for it. We can drum and by then, I should be good with my Oud. Playing D and D at Pennsic, Hell, I am all for it! Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:10:10 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#5866dc77-3bd9-4414-9aeb-cc15a6e69e24 Achbar 2007-10-19T23:10:10Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#84b8b705-9ecc-47dc-93d5-4a75c7ed32b8 Ha ha ha! I have never actually gamed at Pennsic. I occationally play something like munchkin or gimme the brain just to while away a lazy afternoon, but I am not sure I'd be into actual gaming at Pennsic. Aside from having to find a space to pack books in my already overloaded truck... I am not sure I would ever find the 4-5 hours it takes to get a good adventure in. But it is certainly an interesting idea... Wassabeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:10:13 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#84b8b705-9ecc-47dc-93d5-4a75c7ed32b8 Fearghus 2007-10-12T16:10:13Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#26b61eda-b9d3-4bad-8717-d56b0fcca0a1 What a surreal concept... Go to Pennsic to recreate an anachronistic setting, then sit down to role play a fantasy setting. Would I be my persona (which is a 14th century italian soldier) playing a warrior? hehee... sounds confusing. And fun. Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:12:25 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#26b61eda-b9d3-4bad-8717-d56b0fcca0a1 Cherry Bomb 2007-10-11T10:12:25Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#4b17fdaa-6719-45eb-b728-4e21a5921628 I think what irks me about this move to 4th edition is exactly what Dyana said. WotC is showing no regard for their fan base. They are treating them (US) like sheep who need to be fleeced. Wassabee!!!! I prefer GURPS, but I really like 3.5 Maybe you could run a One night of RPG next Pennsic ( smile) we will see. I am not crazy about the 4th edition, but we will see. Loyalty to the fan base does not pay Employees. This is a Business. money must be made. Share Holders must be made happy. Sell Sell Sell, we must BUY Buy BUY! that is what they want us to do. The system must be bucked. In truth, it does not matter. These guys could be screw themselves on this. We will see Thu, 11 Oct 2007 03:20:41 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#4b17fdaa-6719-45eb-b728-4e21a5921628 Achbar 2007-10-11T03:20:41Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#f1c16dc7-2cc2-4176-8918-c9f8fa989262 Hey -- their attitude seems to be; "If White Wolf, can do it?!" Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:41:15 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#f1c16dc7-2cc2-4176-8918-c9f8fa989262 Frozenstars 2007-10-10T18:41:15Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#e218f86b-6534-4bf2-aa8a-67bfe2e02ae5 I had another thought after reading your post. They're really ruining the genre for new gamers, which was what the aggressive realease of the new products was supposed to bring in, new gamers. But new gamers might not have the experience/maturity (especially young gamers) to realize that they don't really need the things they are told. They don't have years of paper, plastic chip, and all whatnot the dm's had on hand or with no minis whatsoever to draw on to realize that WOTC is out of thier minds if it's true they are trying to make mini's necessary, rather than personal gaming pref. I rarely play with minis, that's too much like work. *grins* Cleanup and all that. Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:31:07 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#e218f86b-6534-4bf2-aa8a-67bfe2e02ae5 Dyana 2007-10-10T02:31:07Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#64e6602d-37df-4fed-9f45-ce57c8331a4c You're right D&D does suck. I generally have a hatered for all class / level games but unfortunately it is the staple. It is the game all gamers at least have played. Frankly I prefer GURPS and Hero System as game systems to begin with, but that is a whole different discussion. I think what irks me about this move to 4th edition is exactly what Dyana said. WotC is showing no regard for their fan base. They are treating them (US) like sheep who need to be fleeced. Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:58:11 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#64e6602d-37df-4fed-9f45-ce57c8331a4c Fearghus 2007-10-08T13:58:11Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#8640506d-5b3e-40ec-860f-cd28dbe0dd85 Personally, I think they are harming themself. This is my opinion alone, and probably flawed, but I believe it would be better to release new game worlds and supplements for them to make money than core rules. We don't need new core rules every few years. 2nd ed lasted so long because they had the sense to diversify a lot more with the worlds, even if Forgotten Realms got the lion's share. They could make a mint by getting a few writers to come up with new and different game worlds instead. Mon, 08 Oct 2007 02:57:19 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#8640506d-5b3e-40ec-860f-cd28dbe0dd85 Dyana 2007-10-08T02:57:19Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#51d7da6c-d73e-4f8d-b214-782046afbf02 They say mandatroy in the rumors, but really, any gamers with half a brain doesn't need to worry about that. It's not like WOTC is going to come to your house and barge in, "We are the gaming police, wehre are your minis?" Dm's and players will just have to be smart enough to realize they don't need them, and ignore anything that is specifically about them. So anyone who can't make a system run smoothly without them isn't trying. And if they somehow made it truly impossible, just make your own paper minies of the right size and shape and move on. Mon, 08 Oct 2007 02:55:25 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#51d7da6c-d73e-4f8d-b214-782046afbf02 Dyana 2007-10-08T02:55:25Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#c8628a8f-090d-4711-a9e7-59fac43da557 Why I think HASBRO sucks: #1 -- I bought a bunch of D&D 3.0 books and their biggest strength IMO was no character kits from AD&D. #2 -- They started selling splat books like Magic:TG crack, and people bought 'em. I have a few too. #3 -- They show no loyalty to their fanbase. Putting out 3.5 immed after 3.0 when it could've just been another splat book. #4-- Killing their support of Polyhedron when d20 Modern was a game I really liked too. #5 -- possibly most important ... D&D sucks. HA Yeah, I said it! Get Savage Worlds and play a fantasy book of theirs. It's more fun and a heck of a lot easier. IMO D&D sucks. That's the bottom line. When I hear you'll have to pay a monthly fee to use software or whatever, I'm not surprised. They're out to pull your $$$ out of your pockets, that's it. Screw Hasbro! Hopefully it's incentive for other non d20 games to reclaim this wonderful market. Thu, 04 Oct 2007 06:39:22 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#c8628a8f-090d-4711-a9e7-59fac43da557 REkz 2007-10-04T06:39:22Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#f4a7d97f-555f-420d-85d9-db10daa92d27 I don't plan to purchase it, as I've spent too much money on 3.5. I think it would have to be pretty impressive as a system to get any money from me. Staring at a shelf of $35 books, some of which I haven't ever used in a game, and then facing the prospect of spending more...? Sorry, I'd rather give up D&D altogether than "upgrade". Much as friends of mine before me stopped with AD&D, I am stopping with 3.5. No, I'm good until it proves itself to me, and even then, I'll be converting more than buying. Might pick up a PHB to play along in a 4E game someone runs, but otherwise, nope. Done. Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:10:14 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#f4a7d97f-555f-420d-85d9-db10daa92d27 Madigan 2007-10-01T22:10:14Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#05480b84-053c-4e1b-b39b-ae92bb67ba36 "The fact that they are releasing a new system at this time is a pretty transparent attempt to make 3.5 obsolete and get more money from us." First point - "a pretty transparent attempt to make 3.5 obsolete" And this is bad, why? If no one is buying it, then why continue to support it? Second point - "get more money from us" And again, why is this bad? They want to sell products people want so they stay in business. If I was running a business and my competition was putting out a better product, I'd sure pay attention. If no one was buying my product, why would I want to continue to sell it? And again...you don't *have* to buy it. I don't really understand the logic of "___ is evil because they want to make money!" I mean, people buy new cars. New clothes. New computers. New...whatever...when what they own breaks, becomes obsolete or whatever. We each choose whether to shop or not. If not, then we accept the limitations. Me personally? I won't be buying it because I'm perfectly happy with my flawed 2nd edition. I know it's not supported any longer. On the other hand, I never use modules when I DM; I make up adventures based in the world. And my friend, Forgotten Realms is just as alive to me today as it was when I first bought the novel "Darkwalker on Moonshae ". I own more than half the Forgotten Realms novels, including the Maztica and Empires trilogies. If I can't create a good game with all this resource material that still exists, I can't run a game at all. *grin* Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:06:22 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#05480b84-053c-4e1b-b39b-ae92bb67ba36 $item.owner.firstName 2007-09-24T22:06:22Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#d51985a3-e43e-4cbe-bfad-277d58257329 Wow, well I just posted an entire thread making a bunch of the same points you make above. So, yeah, I kind of feel like an idiot. :) But I agree wholeheartedly and would just add that the idea of companies that produce roleplaying materials making a profit delights me. It means that our hobby will continue to survive and even thrive and flourish, that the community will continue to grow and that new product will continue to be available to those people interested in purchasing it. And, to amplify your point about the importance of players and GMs over system: I've had as much fun playing diceless, rules-free games that were story driven and were purely cooperative storytelling as I have playing games that relied on a system. For mean, good roleplaying is about quality narrative and exercising your imagination, and the system (or absence of a system) is almost irrelevant. -a Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:18:40 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#d51985a3-e43e-4cbe-bfad-277d58257329 Alan 2007-09-24T09:18:40Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#e9917790-4dbc-4336-b68c-5aa77715f97c My attitude might change depending upon if my group of 6 years decides to play it or not? Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:43:52 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#e9917790-4dbc-4336-b68c-5aa77715f97c Frozenstars 2007-09-12T23:43:52Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#9232d391-5a7d-433b-80c6-f6e278ac0156 "D and D is only as good as the game master and the players. This is true no matter what version you play" I absolutely believe this 100%. I've been in awesome games and total shit games. The system isn't important; it's the GM and the players that make it all worthwhile (or not as the case may be). "You are right. Wizards of the Coast are a bunch of rectal sucking greedy bastards....you are right about that". They're nothing more than a business. That's what businesses do. Sell stuff to people who want to buy stuff. Sounds like simple basic commercialism. Instead of just saying "zomg evil" can you give examples of why you feel they're more "greedy" than any other business? I mean, everyone is in the business of making money. If people did not want the products, then they (all businesses, not just WoTC) wouldn't be selling products. Now, if you don't *like* the business decisions, then say "I don't like their business decisions". At that point, you walk away and make your statement with your wallet. Bad product = no customers. Give the *majority* of their player base what they want = make lots of money = commercialism in progress. WoTC, Walmart or any other company is NOT ripping you off. YOU choose what you buy. You can't be ripped off if you *choose* to buy a product unless said product is defective or misrepresented. If you bought a book and it was physically defective and no one will refund your money or replacement, that's been ripped off. Not enjoying changes to a gaming system is not a rip off. At this point, I'm only assuming what your actual issue might be, so if I'm incorrect in my assumptions, you can clarify the issue. Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:40:11 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#9232d391-5a7d-433b-80c6-f6e278ac0156 $item.owner.firstName 2007-08-29T22:40:11Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#625e9c15-8437-40ca-aaec-ff0f02845d4f I'm with you. Our group has be designing our own games for a decade. we never play anything off the shelves. Makes it pretty easy to sidestep these issues; I can however be sympathetically enraged for my gaming peers. Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:37:15 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#625e9c15-8437-40ca-aaec-ff0f02845d4f ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2007-08-29T17:37:15Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#d98ee849-0518-4b64-8f97-bd77d9638363 Waassaaabe! I personally do not intend to spend one penny on 4th edition, and I strongly suggest everyone else do the same (or not do the same as the case may be). There are better games out there than D&D anyway, or keep playing 3rd edition if you like it. Just because WotC is releasing a new edition does not mean we should buy into it. It makes me sick to see my fellow gamer geeks taken advantage of, and I hate Wizards of the Coast for ripping us off. I gave up giving WotC money for Magic the Gathering a long time ago because I realized that it was just a trap designed to get more and more of my money. Now they are doing the same thing with D&D and I do not intend to let them take advantage of me. 4th Edition is specifically being released to make all our old stuff obsolete, and I’m not falling for it. Ok Borther, here is the deal. We have a scam of our own going on here. We will scan the book and pass it around to our friends when it comes out. D and D is only as good as the game master and the players. This is true no matter what version you play. You are right. Wizards of the Coast are a bunch of rectal sucking greedy bastards....you are right about that Wassabe! Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:44:59 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#d98ee849-0518-4b64-8f97-bd77d9638363 Achbar 2007-08-29T01:44:59Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#a96a123b-eab2-4c90-b507-9144b822abeb Don't get me wrong. When 3rd Ed came out. I was pretty exited about it. 2nd Ed had/has some major flaws and there was alot of inconsistent material out there for it. I have nothing against the game coming out in new versions when the system becomes stale or when they realize flaws in the system and attempt to correct them. But there isn't anything majorly wrong with 3.5. So long as you limit the supliments players can draw from for character creation and development the system works well. I guess my attitude could be summed up by saying "If it ain't broke... Don't fix it." The fact that they are releasing a new system at this time is a pretty transparent attempt to make 3.5 obsolete and get more money from us. Once they start print 4th Ed they will not be printing any more 3.5 stuff you can bet on that. So the only way to get new material will be to write your own supliments or buy into this new game. They do the same thing with magic cards. They constantly release new sets and set up the tournament structure so that you can only use cards from the most recent sets so you have to keep buying cards. Rather than making a good product and trying to find more people to sell it to they keep making new products and sell them to the same people. Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:49:27 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#a96a123b-eab2-4c90-b507-9144b822abeb Fearghus 2007-08-28T13:49:27Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#95ddbc22-f127-46da-8469-e42bab494820 I personally do not intend to spend one penny on 4th edition, and I strongly suggest everyone else do the same (or not do the same as the case may be). There are better games out there than D&D anyway, or keep playing 3rd edition if you like it. Just because WotC is releasing a new edition does not mean we should buy into it. It makes me sick to see my fellow gamer geeks taken advantage of, and I hate Wizards of the Coast for ripping us off. I gave up giving WotC money for Magic the Gathering a long time ago because I realized that it was just a trap designed to get more and more of my money. Now they are doing the same thing with D&D and I do not intend to let them take advantage of me. 4th Edition is specifically being released to make all our old stuff obsolete, and I’m not falling for it. Once again proof Wizard’s of the Coast is Evil! The Wal-mart of the gaming Industry! posted by: I will buy 4th edition Player's handbook and see what it has to offer. i will not bash anything before i see it. On a whole, I agree with you. 3.5 was going strong. Why mess things up? Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:14:49 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#95ddbc22-f127-46da-8469-e42bab494820 Achbar 2007-08-28T11:14:49Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#90701923-a712-42df-a1f1-b73e81b084aa As someone who still plays 1st & 2nd AD&D....you could just choose *not* to get any upgrades or "reprints". If you enjoy a system, play that system. One doesn't even have to follow the rules completely if you feel like tweaking them yourselves. I always find the base system I like, and then play it. Maybe modify the things I don't like within my gaming groups. No biggie really. Mon, 27 Aug 2007 21:36:40 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#90701923-a712-42df-a1f1-b73e81b084aa $item.owner.firstName 2007-08-27T21:36:40Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#94d8a41c-25f9-4f83-bf52-87d77f42afd0 At present -- my attitude towards them is to "stick it -- " 4th have better be pretty damn good for me to buy it... -Frozenstars Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:39:15 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#94d8a41c-25f9-4f83-bf52-87d77f42afd0 Frozenstars 2007-08-25T23:39:15Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#8dfb1131-ecce-40ef-8976-3d9b22599408 Well assuming that the Stats for the monsters can be gotten out of the books and you can use a token that is not an overpriced cheap plastic mini to represent the monster on the board that is no big deal. I use minis for my game anyway I do not own any of the plastic ones but I have been painting my own for years. If they make the game like Hero-clix though where you have to use the minis base as monster stats then they will loose way more people than just me. I know alot of people that just will not put up with it. If I wanted to play a miniatures game I would play Warhammer Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:30:56 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#8dfb1131-ecce-40ef-8976-3d9b22599408 Fearghus 2007-08-24T19:30:56Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#7cc35738-700c-4169-897d-83ab804a1460 here's an additional wrinkle: according to rumor, the new 4th edition rules won't call for "optional rules" where D&D Miniatures are concerned (I mean the collectable prepainted plastic minis with cards...) They will be Mandatory! the game will come with some basic minis; but you'll be expected to collect the miniatures from blind packs, and without them, the system will not run smoothly. So you'll be like "sorry guys, we can't run this module. Beholders cost $30 apiece, and I havn't gotten enough knolls yet." LAME Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:53:19 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#7cc35738-700c-4169-897d-83ab804a1460 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2007-08-24T18:53:19Z http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#107bbb69-cdfb-44d4-970a-a4b8c97a0387 I recently received a call from a friend who was all excited about the upcoming release of 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons. Since I have not gotten my hands on a rule book yet (well OK no one has except maybe some play testers) I can't talk about the quality of the game or the mechanics in the game. What I can talk about is Wizards of the Coast and their transparent attempts to empty our pockets. Don't get me wrong I do not begrudge anyone making money. I have happily spent hundreds of dollars a year on gaming supplements for most of my life, and I hope the companies I spend money on succeed because they are producing products I enjoy. What I am talking about is how WotC has started the disturbing trend of releasing a new version of D&D every three or four years. First they released 3rd Edition in 2000. The game was flawed from the start. It was less than a month after it came out that the group I played with started making up house rules to repair its inadequacies. Three years later they released version 3.5 which "fixed" the flawed system. The worst thing is many of the things that were fixed had to have been discovered in play testing if we discovered them in less than a month of play. You will not be able to convince me they didn’t know the original 3.0 was flawed. Then they started re-printing all the books they had released to date upgraded for 3.5. This was nothing more than programmed obsolescence in my opinion. They sucked us in to 3rd edition… then "fixed" it so we would buy all the books for it twice. And now that D&D 3.5 is going strong they announce that 4th edition is on the horizon. Other than there being WAY too many books out for it to keep track of D&D 3.5 is fine as it is. There is no need of a 4th Edition, and this is just another attempt to sucker us all into buying the books we already own for a third time! They will just be revamped as 4th Edition. I personally do not intend to spend one penny on 4th edition, and I strongly suggest everyone else do the same (or not do the same as the case may be). There are better games out there than D&D anyway, or keep playing 3rd edition if you like it. Just because WotC is releasing a new edition does not mean we should buy into it. It makes me sick to see my fellow gamer geeks taken advantage of, and I hate Wizards of the Coast for ripping us off. I gave up giving WotC money for Magic the Gathering a long time ago because I realized that it was just a trap designed to get more and more of my money. Now they are doing the same thing with D&D and I do not intend to let them take advantage of me. 4th Edition is specifically being released to make all our old stuff obsolete, and I’m not falling for it. Once again proof Wizard’s of the Coast is Evil! The Wal-mart of the gaming Industry! Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:12:13 GMT http://analogRPGers.tribe.net/thread/c1a7cb17-964f-4ce3-b627-0a6a3891e1e0#107bbb69-cdfb-44d4-970a-a4b8c97a0387 Fearghus 2007-08-24T15:12:13Z