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I was reading this board just now and I saw Jon’s reply to someone looking to set up a play testing game in the SF bay area, and he said that he didn’t have tie time to commit to a weekly group. This brought up an interesting thought and I was wondering what other people think.
Before I say what I am about to please understand that this is in no way a judgment of anyone. I understand people have lives and responsibilities to things more important than gaming. However, if you can not commit to a game… why play? Being a player who has made room in my life to make a commitment to a weekly game I find players who do not make this commitment aggravating to say the least. What is so hard about setting a regularly scheduled day and time to gather with your friends to participate in a hobby you enjoy? People make this kind of time for all kinds of other things; Yoga classes, Martial Arts, Dance Lessons, Pottery Classes… I am sure you can think of lots more. Why out of all these hobbies does Gaming take a back seat? Why is it OK to disappoint the people you game with but not your Karate instructor?
Sorry I have been ranting and I don’t want it to sound like that. But, it just seems to me that Gaming is a hobby that is worth committing to. It also seems to me that it is simple etiquette to do exactly as Jon did in his post and abstain from participating if you can’t make that commitment. Gamers who only show up part of the time are disruptive to game play, and I am fortunate enough to game with a group of guys who agree with me, and we have refused to allow people to game with us who have proven themselves unreliable.
So… weigh in everyone! Am I just being a jerk or are gamers that refuse to make room in their life for the game just as annoying to the rest of you?
Before I say what I am about to please understand that this is in no way a judgment of anyone. I understand people have lives and responsibilities to things more important than gaming. However, if you can not commit to a game… why play? Being a player who has made room in my life to make a commitment to a weekly game I find players who do not make this commitment aggravating to say the least. What is so hard about setting a regularly scheduled day and time to gather with your friends to participate in a hobby you enjoy? People make this kind of time for all kinds of other things; Yoga classes, Martial Arts, Dance Lessons, Pottery Classes… I am sure you can think of lots more. Why out of all these hobbies does Gaming take a back seat? Why is it OK to disappoint the people you game with but not your Karate instructor?
Sorry I have been ranting and I don’t want it to sound like that. But, it just seems to me that Gaming is a hobby that is worth committing to. It also seems to me that it is simple etiquette to do exactly as Jon did in his post and abstain from participating if you can’t make that commitment. Gamers who only show up part of the time are disruptive to game play, and I am fortunate enough to game with a group of guys who agree with me, and we have refused to allow people to game with us who have proven themselves unreliable.
So… weigh in everyone! Am I just being a jerk or are gamers that refuse to make room in their life for the game just as annoying to the rest of you?
posted by:
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Philadelphia
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Re: Commitments to the game
Tue, February 6, 2007 - 12:15 PMHe said he coudln't commit to a weekly group, but it doesn't have to be weekly. I've played in games that were bi weekly, and a few that were monthly. Just becuase you can't commit every week doesn't mean you're not willing to make some form of commitment, just a different one.
<i>However, if you can not commit to a game… why play?</i>
I would assume the answer here is obvious...becuase they enjoy the game. Time limits don't steal away what we like, just our ability to enjoy them.
As for your comparison of classes, the types you mentioned are typically less than an hour out of a day, maybe two. How many D&D groups can realistically game in that time slot? And in the specific game vs Karate instructor, I freely admit I would give prefernce to the one that I'm actually PAYING for his time. Especially since most places have fees for missed appointments and the like...or no refunds.
I think you are somewhat inflexible to players with different priorities and lifestyles, but I certainly don't think you're a jerk. But you and I woudln't be playing together, because no matter how willing I might be to play weekly, my life simply doesn't allow it. And I don't take any other classes either. I bought a house that needs work, have a teenage son, a grandmother who needs help on a regular basis, freinds I like to see like once a month, and those are the ones that live in town, a job, the anime fangroup I run needs attention occasionally, and just whatever is going wrong(don't say the evil word car right now). Bi weekly or monthly would be much more realistic for me.
If you don't like less than once a weekers, don't game with them, you shouldn't, no one will be happy. Just don't imply that there is something wrong with or rantworthy about those of us or it's pointless for us to want to play because we literally cannot squeeze more hours out of an overcrowded week.
Although part time gamers are not necessarily disruptive, it's all in how a group handles it. Our group is very flexible, and it has roots in realism also. Unless you are a serious constant dungeon delving group where there is literally no where for a group member to go or come from, if your characters were real, it's not unlikely that one or two would leave and return to take care of side errands or personal business. As long as it's treated in that manner, and the dm enforces respect and concentration when at the table instead of focusing on attendance gripes, those kinds of players can add a lot rather than detract from also. But only if they are courteous to the dm about thier conflicts and attendance, a phone call is a must.
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Re: Commitments to the game
Tue, February 6, 2007 - 1:15 PMI see all your points, and I admit that my personal experiences may be showing through in my words. I think a player who is willing to make a biweekly or monthly commitment is fine so long as they can find a group willing to deal with it and they actually COMMIT to it.
Let me share with you my personal experiences that lead to me posting this…
I am currently playing in two groups. One is weekly the other one is monthly. The weekly group I have no complaints about what so ever… Occasionally someone will miss a game but they almost always call and warn us ahead of time, and get the DM their character sheet so that we at least have their sword arm during combat even if we don’t have their head to help solve mysteries in the game. The monthly group on the other hand seems to be full of people who would rather do just about anything other than game and they might show up to a game if they have nothing better to do. We established it so that we meet on the 2nd Saturday afternoon of every month so that EVERYONE would know when it was. Half the players forget about the game and the only time they bother to show up is if someone calls Thursday or Friday to remind them its game week and others CONSTANTLY cancel. I hear all sorts of excuses; “Sorry… can’t game this week I am going to the car show, ren faire, concert, play, movie, date, etc.” I understand special events happen. You’re favorite band is having a concert at a local venue, your niece has her wedding… It happens, but when just about ANY event cancels the game then in my opinion you should not inconvenience people who really do want to play by promising to be there when you will not.
Now that I think on it more my gripe isn’t so much about players who don’t commit to gaming, but more about players who say they commit, but actually let their fellow players down when they don’t show. -
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Re: Commitments to the game
Tue, February 6, 2007 - 3:53 PMYeah, you're gripe is slightly to the left. I agree that rudeness is unreasonable fully. I always call ahead if I can't make it for whatever reason(except the one time I called late when I woke up from a nap I didn't remember laying down for!). I expect to be treated like an adult about it and not guilt-tripped or chastised, and I treat my group like adults and do my level best to be there on time. Luckily with my life unless it's unexpected car failures or creepy ninja naps, I usually have plenty of notice to offer up very polite advance warning. :)
Currently I"m not in my group, we're a rotating game system, and they don't force you to play games you don't like, and I don't care for Vampire. I tried it, hated it, and bowed out respectfully until the next rotation. Which is good, as the bathrooms are i pieces and the van died. LOL I am living in renovation hell, and would have a hell of a time being mentally there even sitting in the chair right now.
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Re: Commitments to the game
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 11:54 AM
> Now that I think on it more my gripe isn’t so much about players who don’t commit to gaming, but more
> about players who say they commit, but actually let their fellow players down when they don’t show.
Yeah, that sucks.
For some years now, my group has been pretty good about this. And, back when not everybody was reliable, the group was HUGE (11-14 players) and 1-2 no-shows really only mattered for the "continuity-freaks" (of whom, admittedly, I was one); we had players a-plenty to pitch brains into group puzzle-solving situations, and swords/stealth/sorcery oozing out our ears. Errrrr... so to speak.
*HOWEVER*, Fearghus' weekly-centric remarks really hit a sore spot for me.
I'd *LOVE* to be able to have a weekly game. Hell, I'd love to have a MONTHLY game. Frankly, he's a lucky !*!&(#$@ to be able to get to do them. Our lives simply don't permit; we are THAT busy. Every game-session we schedule -- EVERY single one of 'em -- is a one-off scheduling victory. At the end of every game, folks whip out their palmpilots, their calendar-books, etc, and we take a few minutes to try to find a time... more often than not, nothing's available for 2+ months, or there are enough "maybes" & such (e.g. you CAN'T miss your mother's b'day party, but it's not yet set whether it's weekend "X" or weekend "X+1"), that we have to agree to do our scheduling via e-mail. Overall, we're averaging 1 session every 6-7 weeks.
I bail out of more than half of the evening User-Group meetings that I go to for professional reasons (there's a LinuxUG, and a SysAdmin group, each once per month), which typically only last for 2ish hours each -- much SHORTER than gaming!
Karate class? Puh-leaz! Not a prayer (not even if I crit on my Divine Intervention roll) I've got my eye on a couple of dojo's that I'd like to check out... I've had my eye on them for over 2 years now, but I haven't been able to make a _reliable_ regular time.
=== Okay. I feel better now... rant over. Mostly. ===
Fearghus is STILL a lucky *@&^!%#, though...
My best advice for Fearghus' Flakes (the monthly group and all the "flakes" there): set up a mailing-list (or Y!Group, or similar) and just make sure there's low-level chatter on it, with a once-a-week (schedule an auto-announce if need be) reminder that (1) points to the next scheduled game-date, & (2) asks folks to say ASAP when they learn of conflicts. Then, when there's too many absentee's, just announce a cancellation, or plan for a 1-shot, maybe even alternate gamesystem or GM. Realize that the group has lots of folks with other priorities, and either deal with them on their own terms... or drop out of that group if it stresses him too much. :-)
- Steve
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Re: Commitments to the game
Tue, February 6, 2007 - 2:32 PMPlaytesting doesn't require a weekly commitment, and I'm already in a weekly group. I'm always interested in new systems and such, but I'm not about to give up my existing group -- or make an additional commitment -- just to test some stranger's system. -
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Re: Commitments to the game
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 12:22 PMThanks for clarifying Jon. I did not mean to single you out in my post. In fact I wanted to point you out as a good example of what a player should do if they do not have time, so I hope you didn’t take offence. The only reason I brought you up is because it was your post that brought this question to mind.
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Re: Commitments to the game
Tue, February 6, 2007 - 2:44 PMIn most of the games in which I have been involved, commitment usually manifested itself in terms of the metagame. If a person failed to show up, the played character suffered.
For me and most everyone I know, a weekly game would be waaaaay to much to ask. But then, I don't join such frequent games because I know that I wouldn't be able to devote that much time.
It is incumbent upon the members of any group, gaming or otherwise, to have enough respect for the other members to be at the appointed time and place. No-call + No-show = No more play. I've booted several friends, and even a brother, from games because of this, and I never felt bad about doing so. I've had people fail to show to once per month games for all the same kinds of reasons you listed. It's not like the gameday snuck up on them, and it's not like the game was demanding so much time. Sometimes, people are just pricks, and they'll use whatever excuse is at hand. Don't worry so much about who shows to the game; the right people will show and your game will be better for it. -
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Re: Commitments to the game
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 11:56 AM
> ... Sometimes, people are just pricks ...
And sometimes, they're just woefully dis-organized. Remember: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by human stupidity."
- Steve
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Re: Commitments to the game
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 12:16 PMGood advice steve. I wouldn't say i stress out about people missing games, but it irks me a bit, and I wanted to know if other people have the same problems and feel the same as I do about it.. I loved the quote "Never attribute to malice..." I'll have to remember that one next time I get irked... It is much more pleasant to think of someone as a stupid than rude. -
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Re: Commitments to the game
Wed, February 7, 2007 - 3:47 PMI've been with a group now for about 6 years -- before that I was with another for about 5, before suffering gaming burnout for about 4 years between the two. Not bad on my experiance; fortuitously for me, I'm the biggest ass in my game but they know it is all in mirthful spirit... -
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Re: Commitments to the game
Fri, February 16, 2007 - 3:23 PMGamers,
This is a great topic.
I've played in a bunch of great games, but generally the biggest problem is flakey players.
I for one like to have a busy social life, so planning a game for Fri or Sat nights just doesn't work. For that matter, Sunday days are rough too b/c I have a job and love to be outdoors when I'm free...
So that leaves weeknights. While I've played a bunch of AMAZING games on weeknights, it can be hard to coordinate logistics.
I have also noticed that biweekly games can be fun, but you do seem to lose a lot in between weeks. Mostly ENERGY.
GREAT THREAD! Keep it up -- and someone send me a msg when you folks resolve this problem? HA HA
Computers are not the answer b/c, while they supposedly make us more efficient, they don't help us to meet up. And for online gaming, that to me is more of an addiction than a real interaction.
(Lately, I've tried Neverwinter Nights1&2 and Heroes of MM V, lost a lot of nights sleep -- but it's not social like what I'm familiar with. In fact, I find much of the actual 'game play' to be things I'd never focus on in RPG'ing).
PEACE
Ari -
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Re: Commitments to the game
Sun, February 18, 2007 - 4:45 AMI think computers have a place though, as voice chats get better and better. People from around the country can sit in on a game, and all talk and hear as if they were in the same room. I would play that kind of online game. Yahoo's voice chat function is pretty good, I used it all the time to chat with freinds before I got the digital magic phone with no long distance bills. I think the services such as Yahoo's voice chat and guild wars team speak and the like will only improve, and that will be good for gaming. And it would make winter gaming easier if everyone doesn't have to risk life and limb to go to their meetup spot. :)
Especially if you combine it with a good rpg program like some of the ones I've seen, where it's not a look into the world, but basically an electronic character sheet and dice roller sort of connection that would preclude cheating nad allow the dm access to sheets as if in the room, I think one was called gRIPS as an example.
It would be a great asset to a community like this too. My area has a dearth of gamers, they're really hard to find. And most of the ones I do run into want to play White Wolf, which I hate the game world. THis would enable me to play with other people around the country or world, and it wouldn't matter if there aren't a lot of players in my preffered games in my geographical area.
I imagine it would cut down on flakes too, since transportation is suddenly not an issue. Not eliminate them, but reduce it.
Ah, technology. -
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Re: Commitments to the game
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 8:42 AMI have been thinking about games like this basically since the invention of games like WOW. If I were more of a programmer I would start working on an interface to do just that. I can easily see a system that would be an all encompassing thing that could monitor character actions roll dice keep track of stats and everything for just about any game you could possibly want to play. The only difference is rather than being action based it would be turn based and the game would be controlled by the game master not the computer. I think it would be an excellent option for anyone who either could not find a local group, or who had a bizarre schedule and could only play pick up games.
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Re: Commitments to the game
Sat, March 3, 2007 - 3:01 PMI've been on both ends of this.
Ari, or R.E., can confirm that when I gamed with him, my life was very complicated with family stuff and depression. Life happens, and it sucks. I only called half the time, and that was just me trying to escape from overwhelming pressure of everything. I was a huge flake, and surprised that anyone from that group bothers to even talk to me anymore! Especially because I think I contributed the most to that groups final disbanding.
That above group was a bi-weekly too, and Ari is right - they lose a LOT of energy. My best luck has been with weekly games - but those tend to have the greatest scheduling conflicts.
Otherwise, I have always been a committed gamer, making the time and showing up. Especially when I GM :)
The worst case scenario I can think of is when I was playing in Sacramento, and this one guy always showed up 5 to 15 minutes late. Never bothered me or the other players - we just compensated for it. But the GM grew furious after two months of this for a weekly game. Kicked the guy out, and the group disbanded quickly afterwards. Goes to show toleration of some bad habits go a long way.
